Moparts Tech Archive

Automatic Trans.

Trans Mods & Upgrades

69DartGT360
Moparts Member
Posts: 3285
From: State College PA.
Registered: Apr 2000

With all the talk of rollerized trannies lately, both in Mopar Muscle and here on moparts, I thought I might as well take some pics of mine while I had it apart once again to show what all is involved. Although mine is a 904, the process for a 727 would be the same. Mine was done by Jim's Performance Transmissions out of Eaton Rapids, MI. Pro-Trans, Pro-Formance (Lupo's Dynamic), A+A and others do them. Expect to pay in the neighborhood of $300-$500 to have your internals rollerized. The basic idea in rollerizing a tranny is to replace all the metal thrust washers with Torrington needle roller bearings. The reduction in drag is incredible. JPT claims .2-.3 tenths in ET reduction with a rollerized/lightened tranny.

This is a pic of a factory thrust washer and planetary gear. The thrust washer has 4 tangs and sits ontop of the planetary.....

Like so.........You can see this washer is obviously used and well worn, with the copper showing through in the wear areas....

Now here is the smae rear planetary (except an aluminum version) that has been machined for the extra width of the Torrington roller bearing. The Torringtons I have are ~.141" thick, and a stock thrust washer is ~.049" thick. So to make up for the difference in thickness, the planetary has to be machined to accept it. The Torringtons have 46 individual needle roller bearings encased in them....

And here is the bearing sitting in it's new "groove"

Here is a pic of the front planetary after machining.......

The Torrington that the front Planetary actually rides on is located inside the Sun Shell......

Not only do the metal thrust washers get replaced with Roller bearings, the large fiber washer on the left that resides between the front pump and high gear clutch drum also get's replaced with a roller bearing.

And the final step in rollerizing a torqueflite is to machine the inside of the output shaft support to accept a roller bearing for the output shaft to ride on...... (This one is obviously busted, but you can still see the roller bearing that has been pressed into place) All in all, not a complicated process if you have access to a BIG lathe and can find a supplier willing to sell you the bearings...... (and as 451Jim found out this can be DIFFICULT!) Hope you enjoy the pics........ And YES the 904 is back together and back in the car as of this afternoon, so hopefully I can't take any more pics of this stuff for a Loooong time. LOL Ryan J.

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How does this affect the trannies life on the street? Can you daily drive something like this?

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jamesc
Moparts Member
Posts: 3954
From: Peoples Republic of New Jersey
Registered: May 2001
posted 10-02-2002 06:27 PM

don't know if this is of any bearing (no pun) on the subject but when i ordered the needle thrust for my powerglides they came in GM packaging. their used in some newer transmission. if you can identify the bearing you might be able to get them cheaper. of course there's still the machine work.

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nhra mark
Moparts Member
Posts: 162
From: St. Charles, MO
Registered: Apr 2002
posted 10-02-2002 08:18 PM

69Dart,
Do you have any e.t. comparisons on your car from a stock type 904 to the rollerized one you have now?

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Moparts Member
Posts: 2078
From: Janesville, Wi 53546
Registered: Oct 2001
posted 10-02-2002 08:28 PM

Ryan, can you get the numbers off the bearings and post them. the machining is very elementry. would be a piece a cake to modify.

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451 Jim
Moparts Member
Posts: 2567
From: Lexington Park Maryland
Registered: Dec 2000
posted 10-02-2002 09:19 PM

Thanks for the 904 pics!
I have made a few inquiries to buy just the thrust bearings for the 727. So far, nobody I contacted will sell me just the bearings. There are no numbers on the those thin bearings. Seems some trans builders don't want everyone knowing what bearings they use. They just want to sell completely machined setups. Any help in identifing the part numbers and/or suppliers would be appreciated.

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69DartGT360
Moparts Member
Posts: 3285
From: State College PA.
Registered: Apr 2000
posted 10-02-2002 10:03 PM

Mark: No back to back comparisons as far as ET goes, but I can tell you the amt. of effort required to turn the output shaft by hand with the roller VS non roller is amazing.... Also a big difference I noticed when I first installed the trans was how the car just kept rolling when I would let off the gas in high gear, required ALOT more braking effort to slow the car down.
Weedy: the bearings don't have any part #'s or Identifying markings on them.... and Liek Jim said, no one seems to want to sell you just the bearings or even divulge the Part #'s. It is like some damn closely guarded secret of these tranny companies. I think they don't want to give you the part #'s because they realize guys could do this themselves and then where would they be with no business? My last thought on trying to get ahold of the part #'s would be contact John Cope at CRT and see if he either does rollerizing or knows what the part #'s would be....... He was extremely helpfull and forthcoming when I asked him some tech questions a few weeks back..... Ryan J.

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la360
Moparts Member
Posts: 217
From: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
Registered: Mar 2002
posted 10-03-2002 06:13 AM

Does anyone know the dimensions of the thrust bearings, and where they go, I would like to do these mods myself. If I find out what the part numbers are from this, I will post them,
AL...

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mrsmallblock
Moparts Member
Posts: 129
From: dillsburg, pa
Registered: Oct 2001
posted 10-03-2002 09:02 AM

I don't know if this will help you guys out in obtaining these bearings but I have a Level 10 catalog, and they list a replacement roller bearing package in their catalog.
Howard Hollinger
mrsmallblock

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451 Jim
Moparts Member
Posts: 2567
From: Lexington Park Maryland
Registered: Dec 2000
posted 10-03-2002 12:20 PM

I called Level 10. I called twice because the first guy had no clue and said no. The second time (1 minute later), I got the "tech" guy after holding a couple minutes. They don't sell the bearings separately. But he said the $403 kit includes the roller thrust bearings, clutches, steels, gaskets, seals, etc. I asked about machining for the roller thrust bearings and he said none required. I asked if the machined planetary gears are in the kit and he said, "No." I asked how thin the roller bearings were, and he said, "very thin". I said the ones I know of are around 0.140" thick and the stock thrust washers are only 0.060" thick, so machining is required. He said theirs were that thin.
Then I asked if they sell the roller output shaft support. He said, "No, those are hard parts, we don't sell"

I don't think they know what they are talking about. I bet he is not familiar with the 727 and is thinking of transmissions that are stock with roller thrust bearings. What do you think?

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WEEDLAYER
Moparts Member
Posts: 2078
From: Janesville, Wi 53546
Registered: Oct 2001
posted 10-03-2002 12:31 PM

don't know who level 10 is, but I think the call should go to Torrington or a good Torrington rep. need a sample for dimensions, etc. Wish I still had my business and contacts, those 4 bearings are probably not over $40 total if you can find out what they are.

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451 Jim
Moparts Member
Posts: 2567
From: Lexington Park Maryland
Registered: Dec 2000
posted 10-03-2002 12:32 PM

I called Cope Racing Transmissions (CRT). Nice guy. He said he doesn't do them, but buys the stuff from A&A (Rick Allison?).
I called A&A. They said they do rollerized 727's, but I needed to talk to Rick. He takes these kinds of calls between 4:00 and 5:30 Central time. So I will call back then.

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wayne_township
Moparts Member
Posts: 3507
From: Rural Eastern, IA USA Baby! Or is it the NW burbs of chicago today?
Registered: Dec 1999
posted 10-03-2002 12:45 PM

how about a break loose torque reading off the output shaft of your tranny vs. a standard 904?

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JohnRR
Moparts
Posts: 10616
From: Ma.
Registered: Nov 1999
posted 10-03-2002 01:01 PM

someone want to give me the dimensions of that torrington , i think i know a source , your friendly dodge dealer , the OD units of the 518/618 are rollerized , maybe they are the same part ? i have 2 od units , but not here , so i'll have to measure them when i get home ...
on that note , anyone rollerize an od trans ? i think this would vastly improve the life of the newer od trans ???

again , is this streetable ????

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John Russo
Moparts Member
Posts: 2138
From: Portsmouth, VA, USA
Registered: Nov 1999
posted 10-03-2002 01:08 PM

Jim, Level 10 does alot of A518 & A500 transmissions which use Torrington needle thrust bearings in the OD section of the trans as standard equipment, so he might have been referring to the OD automatics. I have a Torrington catalog that listed factory replacement bearings for the OD transmissions. I don't think Rick at A&A will tell you part numbers either. Some things are just not talked about unless you buy them from him. The bearings are not labeled, so the best bet would be to measure OD, ID, thickness, and style, and talk to a good Torrington salesman that could identify these bearings. I have my 904 bearings from JPT just like Ryan, but there are no numbers. Someone will eventually find out what the deal is. John

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69DartGT360
Moparts Member
Posts: 3285
From: State College PA.
Registered: Apr 2000
posted 10-03-2002 01:16 PM

JohnRR: Is this streetable? I think you answered your own question, the FACTORY is doing it now...... I'm sure the reason they are doing it is gas milage, and slight RWHP increase...... Here are the specs on the "spare" one I have (one just like in the pics) .141" thick, 2.893" OD and 2.130" ID Keep in mind, my 904 uses 2 different sizes, and this is the larger of the 2. Obviously the smaller one is inside my tranny right now since I re-built it yesterday so I can't measure it. HOWEVER John Russo has a complete set of rollerized 904 guts with torringtons that he got from JPT after I got mine, and he has not installed them yet, so he could measure the smaller one if need be. I know he has the torrington part # for the roller bearing that is pressed into the output shaft support. It is a sepcial bearing that has an oiling hole in the outer case. The problem is that these "encased" bearings that replace the thrust washers are not listed in the torrington catalogs, and JohnRR and jamesc are most likely correct they are some type of factory part....... If Daimler is rollerizing A-518's then these are probably the same roller bearings as the A-518 is a torqueflite derivitive.... These are probably a mopar service part if someone who works at a dealership can look them up.

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jamesc
Moparts Member
Posts: 3954
From: Peoples Republic of New Jersey
Registered: May 2001
posted 10-03-2002 01:19 PM

i don't see why it wouldn't be a streetable mod as it's the newer factory transmissions that are using these. also it may not necessarily be a PN for a chrysler trans. FWIW i'm sure there are different versions of these bearings. in the JW book on glides they give instructions for installing a needle thrust that differs from the GM one i got from transmission specialties. the one from TS was captive (like the ones in the pics here) whereas the one in the JW book was a three piece. having said that maybe the ones their using in these mods are specific to transmissions.

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John Russo
Moparts Member
Posts: 2138
From: Portsmouth, VA, USA
Registered: Nov 1999
posted 10-03-2002 01:23 PM

The factory installed Torrington thrust bearings in the OD section of those transmissions because the OD clutch pack spring has about 700 lbs of load on it, and the factory type thrust washers would have not lasted too long with that kind of loading. The easiest thing to do would be to measure the factory thrust washers' OD, ID, and see what thrust bearings match those dimensions as close as possible. The 727's are pretty much the same in the geartrain, then you have the fiber washers behind the pump and in between the 2 clutch drums, which are the same size. The 904's are smaller, and if you have the 2.74 low gear, the one thrust washer behind the front planetary is larger than the rest. John

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69DartGT360
Moparts Member
Posts: 3285
From: State College PA.
Registered: Apr 2000
posted 10-03-2002 01:31 PM

John, If my memory is right (which it may not be) in that OLD moapr Muscle article where they showed a JPT roller, wer'nt the torrintons he used then NON encased? I'm fairly sure teh picture of them was shown and they were just like the ones in the torrington catalog with no encasement... so maybe the encased bearings are'nt even needed? I'll have to dig around and try to find that magazine and scan in the article.

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JohnRR
Moparts
Posts: 10616
From: Ma.
Registered: Nov 1999
posted 10-03-2002 01:32 PM

69 , the bearing in your picture looks like the ones in the OD section ...

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John Russo
Moparts Member
Posts: 2138
From: Portsmouth, VA, USA
Registered: Nov 1999
posted 10-03-2002 01:38 PM

Ryan, I think it was in Mopar Muscle, Nov 1992 for the JPT 904 article. He did show some bearings that were 3 separate pieces. John

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JohnRR
Moparts
Posts: 10616
From: Ma.
Registered: Nov 1999
posted 10-03-2002 02:08 PM

chrysler part # 4461014
transtar part # 12721 and a second design 12721A

sonnax bearing that goes in the end of the case if the inner race of the overunning clutch contacts the case is part number 22556-brg , not known if same as above ... i have a sonnax catolog here ...

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John Russo
Moparts Member
Posts: 2138
From: Portsmouth, VA, USA
Registered: Nov 1999
posted 10-03-2002 02:21 PM

Here is some good info for the later transmissions:
http://www.specialtytrans.com/specialty/chrysler/Chrysler_index.htm

http://www.specialtytrans.com/specialty/chrysler/3rd_gear_problems.htm

Thrust washer failures:

http://www.specialtytrans.com/specialty/chrysler/a618_diesel.htm

John

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69DartGT360
Moparts Member
Posts: 3285
From: State College PA.
Registered: Apr 2000
posted 10-03-2002 02:26 PM

http://www.qbcbearings.com/
I'm about 99.5% sure this is the company that makes the bearings I have...... Just can't find the damn things listed in their online catalog. For some reason in the thrust bearing section page 3 lists them up to 2" OD and then page 4 they start out at 5" OD, WTF happened to IN BETWEEN?????? The pics I have seen on their site look identical, black on one side, silver on the other etc.

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JohnRR
Moparts
Posts: 10616
From: Ma.
Registered: Nov 1999
posted 10-03-2002 02:27 PM

john , good info , that damage thrust in the last link is not the norm , my trans with 88k and 412 hp to the rear wheels thrusts came out looking great , i could reuse them if i wanted to .
i'm building my trans for longevity and do drag it from time to time , i think rollerizing it may be a good trick , i have a spare trans incase it ain't ...

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451 Jim
Moparts Member
Posts: 2567
From: Lexington Park Maryland
Registered: Dec 2000
posted 10-03-2002 07:48 PM

I talked to Rick at A&A. No bearings separately.
Right when I was feeling defeated, you guys inspired me with all the above posts. I measured some stuff in my 727:
Thrust washers are 0.061" thick, 2.527" ID, 3.403" OD.
I think the needle bearings will be smaller OD, but should be around that ID. On the front planetary, the ID of the bearing will ride over a hub that is 2.495" OD.
Phenolic? washers on my '78 are the same size, 2.630-2.634" ID, 3.310-3.320" OD, 0.062" thick. There are selective thickness ones available. The limiting parts for the one between the clutches are 2.400" ID, 3.338" OD, and the running surface of the reaction support which passes through here is 2.492" OD so the ID of the bearing needs to clear that. The front washer needs to clear the front most part of the reaction support which is machined to 2.608" OD.

What are the sizes of the bearings JohnRR listed from Chrysler?

EDIT: I think a roller thrust bearing with an ID of 2.500" and 3.312" OD or less should do the planetaries.

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JohnRR
Moparts
Posts: 10616
From: Ma.
Registered: Nov 1999
posted 10-05-2002 11:38 AM

the od bearing is to big . here are dimensions i just got , i'm going down to the local bearing supply house wit hthis info on monday and with the od bearings , i should have the bearings we need in hand by the middle of the week

od bearing
od ... 3.850
id ... 2.915
thickness 1.41

brass thrust washer
od ... 3.405
id ... 2.527

plastic spacer behind pump and between the 2 clutch drums
od ... 3.310
id ... 2.625

thickness on the above 2 do not matter .

for those with the rollerize trans , what do they use to replace , if they do , the washer and brass thrust washjer that goes between the input shaft and the mainshaft ? i'm assuming that stays the same .

69dart , is there a fiber washer between the front drum and the rear drum on the 904 , there is on the 727 and i assume that gets rollerized also ?

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451 Jim
Moparts Member
Posts: 2567
From: Lexington Park Maryland
Registered: Dec 2000
posted 10-06-2002 12:00 AM

JohnRR, Good to see some help in this "quest". I am still working the issue, too. Like I said, if we can find a OEM bearing that is "encased" with the washers front and back that is 2.500" ID, and between 3.250-3.4" OD, around 0.140" thick; then we are good to go.
The effort required makes me want to send the info to A&A, CRT, JPT, etc. just to show them their "secrecy" is rediculous. But I won't...

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451 Jim
Moparts Member
Posts: 2567
From: Lexington Park Maryland
Registered: Dec 2000
posted 10-06-2002 12:02 AM

But I will put the info on my website for everyone in the world to see. Those web search engines make it easy to find anything people are willing to share!

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71dartswinger
Moparts Member
Posts: 1003
From: NE Arkansas
Registered: Jan 2001
posted 10-06-2002 12:30 AM

What does it cost for the machining you think? Anyone know how much has to be done? There are some speed shops but a buddy of mine father has a machine shop with lathes and stuff.

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seized nut
New Member
Posts: 25
From:
Registered: Aug 2002
posted 10-06-2002 11:04 AM

Hey guys the bearing are the chev bearings 35400c is the number that is the industry standard (lempco) number.
Take care

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69DartGT360
Moparts Member
Posts: 3285
From: State College PA.
Registered: Apr 2000
posted 10-06-2002 11:12 AM

Lemco does'nt have a very good website, but I ordered one of their bearing catalogs that is supposed to have thrust bearings in it...... http://www.lempco.com/catalog.htm

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seized nut
New Member
Posts: 25
From:
Registered: Aug 2002
posted 10-06-2002 10:20 PM

Just go to your local trans shop they can get that part number with no problems ,the bearings are about 12 bucks each ,Lempco ,transtar,etc likely won't sell to you direct . Good luck

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JohnRR
Moparts
Posts: 10616
From: Ma.
Registered: Nov 1999
posted 10-07-2002 10:56 AM

i'll check transtar , i can buy there ... , what chev trans ? found it , turbo 350

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451 Jim
Moparts Member
Posts: 2567
From: Lexington Park Maryland
Registered: Dec 2000
posted 10-07-2002 11:24 AM

Hey Nut, thanks for the part number. Do you know the dimensions of that bearing? 727 or 904? I understand that more than one size is used.

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451 Jim
Moparts Member
Posts: 2567
From: Lexington Park Maryland
Registered: Dec 2000
posted 10-07-2002 01:34 PM

I went to an independant transmission place in town during lunch time today. I asked for the 35400c bearing, Chevy 350 trans. He recognized the part number. This is what I measured at the counter (+/-0.005"?):
2.125" ID, 2.891" OD, 0.141" thick, encased
That is not big enough for a 727. So I asked if he could match something up to my thrust washer. He got this from a GM front wheel drive torque converter (125 or 440, T4):

Sonex #GM N11, 2.496-2.500" ID, 3.365" OD, 0.149" thick, encased.
This looks like it should work for the 727 planetary sets. I will borrow a camera and post pictures.

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JohnRR
Moparts
Posts: 10616
From: Ma.
Registered: Nov 1999
posted 10-07-2002 01:44 PM

good hunting jim , tranny shop i deal with told me that he has rollerized 727 and used the bearing nut said , maybe that works for a 904 ?
he told me not to run a roller thrust bearing trans on the street , to much banging on clutch apply , he's seen the bearings crack .

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451 Jim
Moparts Member
Posts: 2567
From: Lexington Park Maryland
Registered: Dec 2000
posted 10-07-2002 09:04 PM

Yes, the first bearing matches the dimensions that Ryan posted earlier in this topic. FYI, from the Sonex catalog, the 35400c crosses over to Sonex GM-N-14H.
I will have pictures tomorrow.

I bought two of these bearings and it seems the ID is close to 2.496". I may have put too much pressure on the caliper when I thought it was closer to 2.500". The back of the front planetary of the 727 has a pilot that the bearing goes over and it is right about 2.496" also. So, when machining it for thickness, maybe 0.002" needs to come off that pilot hub too. The other locations on the gear train don't have an ID pilot.

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440shorty
Moparts Member
Posts: 891
From: Annapolis, MD
Registered: Apr 2001
posted 10-07-2002 09:27 PM

Comments:
1. Great pics!

2. The O/D transmissions are still not "rollerized." The only torringon thrust bearings are in the Overdrive Section as always, while the front, three-speed part still has only thrust washers as always -- I just overhauled a 2000 Dodge van 46RE trans.

3. "THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX!" The torrington bearings used by the aftermarket to rollerize a torqueflight are NOT Chrysler part numbers, as you are discovering. I build all types of transmissions, so I can find out what will fit.

4. The only issues are
a. LUBE -- roller bearings need more lube and lube INTO the bearing -- make sure it gets there.

b. Preload -- the end play in the transmission shouldn't be too sloppy. Thrust washers tolerate slop far more than bearings do.

5. GM rollerized the Turbo 350 from early to late. I wonder why Chrysler didn't bother?

6. As mentioned in the article in MM, rollerizing the output support loses the governor function, UNLESS...

7. If a seal can be installed at the rear of the support, then the governor function can be retained -- a feature no one has bothered to offer yet.

8. I didn't notice any bearing in between the input drum and the output shaft -- may not be possible/practical (diameter too small)

440shorty

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seized nut
New Member
Posts: 25
From:
Registered: Aug 2002
posted 10-07-2002 10:00 PM

Jim ,I will size up the bearings that i used in the 727,there are 3 bearings that i have used but there is some od grinding to do on the sun gear and it makes for a really nice setup and the machining doesn't have to got through into the pinion pins .
Later,Nut

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MRMOPAR
Moparts Member
Posts: 1547
From: Tucson, AZ
Registered: Jan 2000
posted 10-09-2002 12:02 PM

Looking at 451s pictures of the Sonax bearing. Are we at this point saying that we can use that GM PN bearing in the 727 or are we still looking for the correct bearing. Also will that bearing work with the rear planetary????

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451 Jim
Moparts Member
Posts: 2567
From: Lexington Park Maryland
Registered: Dec 2000
posted 10-09-2002 02:49 PM

I did some more looking at my trans parts. The 35400c bearing might be able to be used on the rear planetary (both sides) in a 727. The ID will just clear the sun gear, about 2.125" over the sun gears 2.090". And it looks about the size shown in the Mopar Muscle Oct 2002 issue (on the rear planetary).
The GM-N-11 bearing might be able to be used on the front planetary and between the clutches (machining required).

Right now that is my plan. But I won't start for a few weeks, just in case we come up with something better.

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451 Jim
Moparts Member
Posts: 2567
From: Lexington Park Maryland
Registered: Dec 2000
posted 10-09-2002 09:10 PM

siezed nut, Now I see what you are saying about using the 35004c bearing, the rear planetary and the sun shell. I noticed the retaining clip/ring that holds the sun gear in the shell might interfere with the 2.125" ID of that bearing. Let us know how you did it! Thanks.

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seized nut
New Member
Posts: 25
From:
Registered: Aug 2002
posted 10-09-2002 11:15 PM

Im gonna get setup to do a full roller setup shortly here ,right from the case behind the inner roller race to the pump ,when i do i will take some pics and id the bearings that i use. As soon as im done i will post it .
Thanks,Nut.

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451 Jim
Moparts Member
Posts: 2567
From: Lexington Park Maryland
Registered: Dec

I have started a web page for this info when it is all sorted out. Some pictures, part numbers and how to:
Rollerized Trans

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Don Oremus
New Member
Posts: 78
From: Wisconsin
Registered: Apr 2002
posted 10-19-2002 07:31 PM

The bearing for the gear train is from the THM 350 as said earlier, it is located between the pump and direct drum, frequently called the pump bearing. It is used in all but one location on the 727 gear train. I have the part number at work for the washers and bearing for the location between the front planet and front annulus gear, it is not a one piece unit like the other. The hard part about machining is cutting the soft aluminum then into hardened steel pins, a little hard on tooling.
.140 is the common thickness of must Torrington thrust bearings, and .062 is the common size of thrust washers.
As far as streetability goes, it is a good thing. I rollerized my 46RE(A-518) and swisscheesed my sunshell (removed 1 1/4 pounds) on my 69 Superbee. Did this many years ago and still going strong.
Don

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451 Jim
Moparts Member
Posts: 2567
From: Lexington Park Maryland
Registered: Dec 2000
posted 10-20-2002 12:41 PM

Don
Your input will be helpful. Can you measure that bearing/washers for the front planetary too? I want to compare it to the GM-N-11 bearing I have (2.496" ID x 3.365" OD, 0.149" thick).

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HEMIWAGON
Moparts Member
Posts: 1329
From: Chicago (South Suburbs), Illinois
Registered: Sep 2000
posted 10-20-2002 12:55 PM

So has anyone put a roller bearing in the output shaft support and retained the governor. As I prefer to keep my tranny fully automatic.

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JohnRR
Moparts
Posts: 10616
From: Ma.
Registered: Nov 1999
posted 10-21-2002 11:55 AM

don , you put an RE in your 69 ? what did you do for governor control and feedback ? or is that a typo and you put in the RH ???
thanks for the heads up[ on rollerize for the street , i have a complete set of internals from a spare trans , maybe i need to be bored on the lathe in the near future ...

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Don Oremus
New Member
Posts: 78
From: Wisconsin
Registered: Apr 2002

John, it is a 46RH, I didn't reread my post, sorry for any confusion.

I have some bearing numbers here for the 727 front planet to front annulus gear:
NTA-4052 for the needle bearing

TRA-4052 for the races

These came from a bearing supply facility, hopefully it is enough info.

Don

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John Russo
Moparts Member
Posts: 2138
From: Portsmouth, VA, USA
Registered: Nov 1999
posted 10-23-2002 07:16 AM

Don - what manufacturer's P/Ns are those bearings from? Torrington, Sonnax?
Thanks, John

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451 Jim
Moparts Member
Posts: 2567
From: Lexington Park Maryland
Registered: Dec 2000
posted 10-24-2002 08:39 PM

Those are Torrington numbers:
NTA-4052 for the needle bearing: 2.500"x3.250" x 0.0781" needles
TRA-4052 for the races: washers same dia, 0.031" thick +/-0.001"

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todd440
Moparts Member
Posts: 1302
From: lapeer,michigan
Registered: Jan 2001
posted 08-31-2002 07:54 PM

I just tore into my brothers 727, and it has no governor in it. It was set up with the cheetah VB. It worked fine, but I wanted to know the thought process behind leaving it out. I've never seen this.

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CUDANUT
Moparts Member
Posts: 152
From: GRAYSVILLE, AL
Registered: Mar 2002
posted 08-31-2002 08:17 PM

If you are going to use a manual valve body the governor is not required, its just dead weight so you remove it.

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451 Jim
Moparts Member
Posts: 2568
From: Lexington Park Maryland
Registered: Dec 2000
posted 09-01-2002 12:08 AM

Are there any balancing issues with removing the governor? How about just removing the guts (shift valve, rod, weights) i.e. the stuff that moves.

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340SIX
Moparts Member
Posts: 3614
From: NEW ORLEANS,LA.
Registered: Jun 2000
posted 09-01-2002 12:42 AM

we leave them out to with the reverse valave body it makes the rotating mass less but don't realy think in our cars it matters LOL

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Ilias383
Moparts Member
Posts: 435
From: Adelaide, South Australia
Registered: Dec 2001
posted 09-01-2002 03:38 AM

I've removed the guts on mine and I was wondering whether or not I have to line it up with the hole in the output shaft?

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todd440
Moparts Member
Posts: 1302
From: lapeer,michigan
Registered: Jan 2001
posted 09-01-2002 08:29 AM

What are , if any, the drawbacks from leaving it out? Russo or Dennis, your thoughts?

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John Kunkel
Moparts Member
Posts: 2643
From: Rio Linda, CA, USA
Registered: Nov 1999
posted 09-01-2002 04:04 PM

There are no disadvantages to leaving it out when using a manual VB. With a manual VB, there is no longer any forced lubrication of the governor parts so removing them to prevent the possibility of increased wear makes sense.

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