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BB Edelbrock Alum Heads

Heres some of the posts of Fast68plymouth:

Author Topic: initial results for the Edelbrock heads
fast68plymouth
Moparts Member
Posts: 878
From: so burlington,vt usa
Registered: Aug 2000
posted 04-11-2001 09:07 AM
---------------------------------------------
well, here is the results for the first flow test of the E heads. lets just say that IMO these have obsoleted the need to bother with refurbishing and modifying stock iron heads if youre looking for a hot street/bracket motor.
for the $1190 that these heads cost you couldnt pay for the labor to prep a set of stock iron heads to make similar power.
anyway, here are the numbers vs. a really good set of ported iron heads that made over 600HP:
lift.....E in/ex.....906 in/ex
.100.....67.3/56.1.....72.4/53.5
.200....139.0/114.1...158.0/109.0
.300....204.7/164.4...210.7/148.9
.400....251.3/185.3...247.9/175.5
.500....273.7/193.8...265.7/196.1
.550....280.1/198.6...270.4/205.8
.600....284.9/202.3...280.1/215.5
.650....286.5/204.7...283.2/222.9
.700....286.5/205.9...283.2/228.9
these 906's used 2.14 intake valves that were modified to a 37.5deg seat angle.
the porting alone to get the 906's to flow like these did would eat up about $1000, so the new E heads look like they are a bargain at this point.
-------------------------------------------

these are flow numbers for the heads as they came out of the box.
i have to say that it doesnt look like Edelbrock left alot on the table for porting. its not at all like a stage VI or indy head where when you look at it you can tell right away that some porting is necessary. these look like they really were designed to be used out of the box with good results.
also, by looking at the exhaust port shape i wouldnt have thought it would go over 200cfm as delivered, but i have to say its pretty darn good like it is.
the intake port looks alot like a stage V intake port and the short side radius has a very smooth long gentle radius, and the bowl is pretty generous in size as well.
i'm not sure if 300cfm will be that easy to get without alot of porting, but we'll find out soon.
i havent had a chance to check the seat depths and guide fit, but they look/feel pretty good.
overall i'm pretty impressed with the fit and finish.
i'll post the sizes/volumes when i have themthese are flow numbers for the heads as they came out of the box.
i have to say that it doesnt look like Edelbrock left alot on the table for porting. its not at all like a stage VI or indy head where when you look at it you can tell right away that some porting is necessary. these look like they really were designed to be used out of the box with good results.
also, by looking at the exhaust port shape i wouldnt have thought it would go over 200cfm as delivered, but i have to say its pretty darn good like it is.
the intake port looks alot like a stage V intake port and the short side radius has a very smooth long gentle radius, and the bowl is pretty generous in size as well.
i'm not sure if 300cfm will be that easy to get without alot of porting, but we'll find out soon.
i havent had a chance to check the seat depths and guide fit, but they look/feel pretty good.
overall i'm pretty impressed with the fit and finish.
i'll post the sizes/volumes when i have them
--------------------------------------------

okay, i did say that it didnt look like Ebrock left us alot to play with on these heads and that 300ish might be the end of it.
i guess a more acurate way to look at is, is it cost effective to try to get much more than 300cfm out of these heads. IMO, if you really need much more than 300cfm, then you need to step up to one of the more race oriented offerings on the market.
that being said, let me say that i've already had the die grinder at work on these new heads. while i havent got it all sorted out yet, i will say that contrary to my first impressions, 300cfm is achieveable .
when i get some numbers i'm satisfied with i'll start another post with the results.
i will say again that these have obsoleted the need for fooling with oe iron heads, and i'm sure that when we dyno these against the oe heads that point will be made even clearer.

---------------------------------------------
so far i have to say i like these heads alot, and i'm sure Edelbrock will sell alot of them.
if i could use two thumbs up i would.
okay, its taken me a few tries to get here, but this is where i'm at now with the test heads:
lift.....in/ex
.100...70.9/55.6
.200..148.1/117.0
.300..212.. i have to tell you it was hard to resist trying something drastic after the first couple of tries showed only a small gain. after some more looking and pondering i just decided it was too small to flow much more than it already was and just needed to be opened up some more. thats where it is now. the same basic shape, just bigger.0/172.6
.400..256.1/199.9
.500..281.7/221.7
.550..290.4/230.1
.600..297.6/236.2
.650..304.7/238.6
.700..308.3/241.0
IMO, the key with these newer computer designed/modeled castings is to not try to re-engineer the head/ports. carefully examine the port contours and try to figure out why/how the port works. at this stage of the game i've basicaly kept the original port shape and just made it slightly larger on the intake port, and maybe "two sizes" larger on the exhaust. i havent cc'd the ports yet, but i'll post the volumes after i measure the ports.
i will say that after my initial modification of the exhaust port i never thought i'd get these kinds of numbers out of that port. it just doesnt seem to follow the current thinking, but it does seem to work well

so far i have to say i like these heads alot, and i'm sure Edelbrock will sell alot of them.
Fast68ply
---------------------------------------------
here are some before and after measurements and volumes of the test heads.
area-before-after
A----1.945--2.005
B----1.595--1.630
C----2.010--2.050
D----1.655--1.715
E----2.300X-2.320X
-----1.220--1.240
F----1.045- 1.165
-----1.100
G----1.640X-1.800X
-----1.170--1.260
H----1.740--1.860
I----210.5--228.5
J----70.0---81.5


area's
A-intake bowl just below seat
B-exhaust bowl just below seat
C-intake bowl, largest portion
D-exhaust bowl, largest portion
E-intake opening size
F-width at pushrod bulge(varied on unported head by this much)
G-exhaust opening size
H-exhaust port width, from ex side, measured even with guide(height and width)
I-intake runner volume
J-exhaust runner volume

---------------------------------------------


Any other info Fast68ply or GregZ can provide I will post it to this thread as they make the info avil.
carl
---------------------------------------------

Lash settings on BB w/ aluminum heads & Engle cams

DusterDave
Moparts Member
Posts: 3531
From: Tampa, FL
Registered: Mar 2000
posted 05-26-2002 04:42 PM

I'm wondering what others set their valves to, and if you allow for aluminum head expansion. I set my valve lash to .018 on the intakes and .020 on the exhausts, which is on the low side of the recommended range. I'm running a Hughes HEV5663BS solid lifter cam and Edelbrock RPM aluminum heads.
When my engine is fully warmed up, the valvetrain sounds like a sewing machine.

==========================================

direct_subjection
Moparts Member
Posts: 3826
From: Piscataway, NJ, USA, Earth - 3rd one from the sun
Registered: Feb 2001
posted 05-26-2002 05:17 PM

I don't remember exactly, but I chose either .018 or .020 cold myself for my Hughes HEV5056BS. I little tighter than I would have if I had iron heads.

==========================================

Herman
Moparts Member
Posts: 2562
From: The Hague, Netherlands
Registered: Nov 1999
posted 05-26-2002 05:31 PM

My engine usually runs between 160 and 180, so I always set them tighter than specs.
Engine seems to like it.
As for "how tight?" I wouldn't know... ...
I use a small strip of iron form a computer that I measured once that was slightly thinner than the recommend lash. Don't remember the specs of my "High-end" tool... lol

========================================

direct_subjection
Moparts Member
Posts: 3826
From: Piscataway, NJ, USA, Earth - 3rd one from the sun
Registered: Feb 2001
posted 05-26-2002 05:36 PM

Hehe Herman - you're welcome to join us in the 21st century with a feeler gauge (unless such technology has not reached the Hague yet...).
I've done similar things in the past though...

=========================================

446acuda
Moparts Member
Posts: 1323
From: Charlotte, NC, U.S.A.
Registered: Mar 2001
posted 05-26-2002 05:46 PM

Herman has to skimp on tools so he can afford that killer garage that he has.

======================================

clutch
Moparts Member
Posts: 623
From: Spring Lake MI USA
Registered: Mar 2001
posted 05-26-2002 05:47 PM

I don't know how much the E-heads grow but I set my roller in my stroker with stage VI heads at .012 and .014 otherwise it sound like a hay bailer. It checks out to about .016-.018 and .018-.020 when hot.

=========================================

mopardad
Moparts Member
Posts: 371
From: Manheim Pa.
Registered: Sep 2001
posted 05-26-2002 07:21 PM

Are you guys saying that you set your lash without heat in the motor?? We have always set lash & recheck with the motor heated up.

=========================================

BigEdsGarage
Moparts Member
Posts: 158
From: monroe,ct usa
Registered: Dec 2000
posted 05-26-2002 09:06 PM

Dave, I run a Hughes solid in my 340, lash recommendation is also .018/.020. If I run it at that it sounds like its coming apart. I found .014/.016 to quiet it down and runs fine.

==========================================

DRAM
Moparts Member
Posts: 4806
From: West Palm Bch. Fl.
Registered: Jun 2000
posted 05-26-2002 09:33 PM

dave, i would do it this way. set the lash like we did before, cold. then with the engine warm recheck them to see what expansion changes have occured. i would avoid overtightening though just to "quiet it down". for that cam i would try to stay within the recommended guidelines. i never try to set lash on a hot engine if i can avoid it. besides, by the time you get done the temperature drop from when you start to when you finish will still have the settings messed up.

=========================================

451 Jim
Moparts Member
Posts: 2568
From: Lexington Park Maryland
Registered: Dec 2000
posted 05-26-2002 09:35 PM

Dave,
With my Edelbrock heads and Ultradyne cam, I found that the hot lash is 0.004" looser than cold. (I checked both a few times). The Ultradyne solids get noisy when loose too! I can listen to my rockers at idle and tell if a rocker is more than 0.003" loose.

=========================================

BigDaddy440
Moparts Member
Posts: 318
From:
Registered: Jan 2001
posted 05-27-2002 01:41 AM

Boy, I am sure glad to hear you that some of you guys have noisy valvetrain too! I thouhgt I was alone, or was just going to have to deal with it.
I run a HEV5056, I'm new to the soild cam world and have been setting both the intake and exhaust at .020.
I've always noticed that when the car warmed up, the valvetrain noise would increase. Now I know why--thanks.
I'll try to tighten the lash a little and see if that helps.
It sounds great when I start it up cold, and I want it to always sound like that.

===========================================

BB E-heads, Are 10 degree locks

71scamp
Moparts Member
Posts: 1909
From: Akron, Ohio
Registered: Apr 2001
posted 12-16-2002 05:03 PM

Is it a necessity to pay for 10 degree locks and retainers and pay my local shop to install them? I wasn't expecting this expense til the shop told me I should do it today. It would be $75 for locks and retainers plus labor to install them. Has anyone had problems with the 7 degree locks?

===================================

451boy
Moparts Member
Posts: 5479
From: Oregon
Registered: Nov 1999
posted 12-16-2002 05:05 PM

I don't see any reason to change the retainers if you're using the stock springs. If you put some mondo springs in there then sure, step up to the big stuff.

=====================================

71scamp
Moparts Member
Posts: 1909
From: Akron, Ohio
Registered: Apr 2001
posted 12-16-2002 06:08 PM

I bought the Isky #8005A valve springs to go with the MP 620-324 solid cam, 275 @ .050. This spring has 135 seat pressure and 395 open pressure.

=====================================

DRAM
Moparts Member
Posts: 4945
From: West Palm Bch. Fl.
Registered: Jun 2000
posted 12-16-2002 06:15 PM

395 lbs. isn't that much pressure but you may be approaching the limit of the stock retainers. i'd be curious as to what some of the other guy's think. i've used the hughes 1107 springs with the stock retainers with good success but they're only about 350 lbs. at 1.2 spring height. no problems so far. no doubt the 10 degree retainers are stronger but it's hard for me to say if you really need them for your application. it seems borderline to me.

========================================

Redmist
Moparts Member
Posts: 115
From: Boise Idaho
Registered: Jul 2002
posted 12-16-2002 06:19 PM

Man look at your car... Its only $70!!
I would throw them in the mix, but thats how I am!!

====================================

Dduster
Moparts Member
Posts: 731
From: Livermore, CA
Registered: Dec 2000
posted 12-16-2002 06:42 PM

You drop one (1) valve at speed due to stem lock failure and you'll wish you spent the extra money. Cheap insurance.

=====================================

r2
Moparts Member
Posts: 1605
From: Farmington Hills, Michigan
Registered: Jan 2000
posted 12-16-2002 06:47 PM

I put the 10 degree stuff on mine, ( Unlawfl did as well),,,

====================================

fast68plymouth
Moparts Member
Posts: 3468
From: so burlington,vt usa
Registered: Aug 2000
posted 12-16-2002 06:54 PM

IMO, the machined 7deg locks they come with, along with the retainers are fine for pretty much any type of "normal" solid cam usage.
when i upgraded the heads on the default 600hp motor, i reused the retainers locks with the 8005A springs.
for that matter....when i did the dyno testing of the test heads, i used the supplied retainers and locks with K-Motion K1100 roller springs(set up at 200/500).

=====================================

jamesc
Moparts Member
Posts: 4180
From: Peoples Republic of New Jersey
Registered: May 2001
posted 12-16-2002 06:58 PM

i think this is one that needs to be rehashed into some good info. i run 10* on my heads. the one engine i would say required them (300 seat/800 open) the other one got them cause i already had the titanium retainers. having said that i've heard and seem some stuff that argues against the 10* stuff. first is the somewhat apparent damage the 10* do to the stem. the 7* wedges tighter where the 10* seem to hook the groove a bit. i "think" there have been some pretty substantial improvements in the 7* stuff and AFAIK nascar engines are running the super 7*? to the best of my knowledge the only reason for the 10* is to stop lock pull through. when was the last time you heard of this happening? i'm not saying either one is better because i don't have enough experience/knowledge on all the different combos to say. i'm leaning towards the 7* being better (most applications) but can't say for sure. one advantage of the 10* is you don't need different retainers for different stem sizes, just different locks. if there is a weakness in the combo your working with i don't think it's that their 7* but more the quality of the retainers. i'm sure a quality 7* retainer/lock setup (crane,comp ect.) would be fine. i'd like to get some solid input on this subject and have it archived. we had a long discussion on the pros and cons before but it never got saved.

====================================

71scamp
Moparts Member
Posts: 1909
From: Akron, Ohio
Registered: Apr 2001
posted 12-16-2002 07:00 PM

You guys almost had me talked into it til I read Fast68's post.
Fast, if you feel the locks and retainers on the edelbrock heads are good enough with 8005A springs then I'll probably leave good enough alone. I raced with 7 degree locks on my 11 second 340 for years.

=====================================

jamesc
Moparts Member
Posts: 4180
From: Peoples Republic of New Jersey
Registered: May 2001
posted 12-16-2002 07:00 PM

comon Dwayne with all the heads you crank out and stuff you've seen you must have more to say than that.

====================================

DRAM
Moparts Member
Posts: 4945
From: West Palm Bch. Fl.
Registered: Jun 2000
posted 12-16-2002 07:10 PM

i'm glad someone else chimed in on this one. i don't have enough long term experience with the edelbrock retainers to make the call one way or the other. after all, they've been out what, a year and a half?

======================================

bud
Moparts Member
Posts: 558
From: vineland n.j. cumberland
Registered: Oct 2000
posted 12-16-2002 07:13 PM

I am changing springs on mine and have 10dg retainers so I nead 10 dg locks for the new stem size while your at it dont forget if you are running lash caps to get the retaners with the recess for the lash caps

=====================================

ZIPPY
Moparts Member
Posts: 5790
From: Detroit suburbs MI USA
Registered: Jan 2000
posted 12-16-2002 07:46 PM

Mine will be set up with about 200 closed/500 open pressure, and I'm going to use 10 degree titanium retainers.
Not really because I'm all paranoid about pulling a lock through (as james said, when is the last time you heard of that happening?) but because I already have the titanium stuff laying around and a little extra insurance is nice. They were used on 3/8 valves before, but luckily they will work on the E heads by changing the locks.

=====================================

Streetwize
Moparts Member
Posts: 1454
From: Charlotte,NC USA
Registered: Dec 2000
posted 12-16-2002 07:59 PM

IMO, HARDENED (like the Comps) 7 degree locks are fine for most apps, although I've used 10 degrees and see no adverse effects either way. I have seen a few three groove locks 7 degree pull through. Valve weight spring load and how the motor is slung have the biggest bearing on how the valvetrain holds up. Give me two heads, one off a stick and one off an automatic with the same valvetrain and you can tell the stick car just by the way the valves come out.
Most aftermarket complete heads use cheap stamped locks, they get tossed right along with the as delivered valve job. A good single groove hardened lock and matching retainer, whether 7 or 10 degrees is money well spent.

Wize

====================================

mopardad
Moparts Member
Posts: 400
From: Manheim Pa.
Registered: Sep 2001
posted 12-16-2002 08:16 PM

What Streetwise said about aftermarket heads is 100% right. My sons Daytona with Indy -1 dropped valves twice. Luckily it did not do any major damage either time. Heads came from Indy with 10 degree chrome moly retainers & locks. After the second time all the valves, locks & retainers were replaced. The retainers were replaced with titianum pieces. He has not had a problem since changing & the motor has seen over 7300 RPM on the bottle many times now.

=====================================

JERICOGTX
Moparts Member
Posts: 2685
From: Coldrnhell, MN
Registered: Apr 2001
posted 12-16-2002 08:27 PM

Mopardad, My INDY SR's also came with 10* locks and Chromoly retainers from INDY. I also dropped a valve on mine but was not as lucky as your son. I have replaced all the keepers, springs and upgraded to Titanium retainers

====================================

Author Topic: BB E-heads, Are 10 degree locks worth 80 some dollars?
71scamp
Moparts Member
Posts: 1909
From: Akron, Ohio
Registered: Apr 2001
posted 12-16-2002 05:03 PM

Is it a necessity to pay for 10 degree locks and retainers and pay my local shop to install them? I wasn't expecting this expense til the shop told me I should do it today. It would be $75 for locks and retainers plus labor to install them. Has anyone had problems with the 7 degree locks?

===========================================

451boy
Moparts Member
Posts: 5479
From: Oregon
Registered: Nov 1999
posted 12-16-2002 05:05 PM

I don't see any reason to change the retainers if you're using the stock springs. If you put some mondo springs in there then sure, step up to the big stuff.

=====================================

71scamp
Moparts Member
Posts: 1909
From: Akron, Ohio
Registered: Apr 2001
posted 12-16-2002 06:08 PM

I bought the Isky #8005A valve springs to go with the MP 620-324 solid cam, 275 @ .050. This spring has 135 seat pressure and 395 open pressure.

======================================

DRAM
Moparts Member
Posts: 4945
From: West Palm Bch. Fl.
Registered: Jun 2000
posted 12-16-2002 06:15 PM

395 lbs. isn't that much pressure but you may be approaching the limit of the stock retainers. i'd be curious as to what some of the other guy's think. i've used the hughes 1107 springs with the stock retainers with good success but they're only about 350 lbs. at 1.2 spring height. no problems so far. no doubt the 10 degree retainers are stronger but it's hard for me to say if you really need them for your application. it seems borderline to me.

======================================

Redmist
Moparts Member
Posts: 115
From: Boise Idaho
Registered: Jul 2002
posted 12-16-2002 06:19 PM

Man look at your car... Its only $70!!
I would throw them in the mix, but thats how I am!!

======================================

Dduster
Moparts Member
Posts: 731
From: Livermore, CA
Registered: Dec 2000
posted 12-16-2002 06:42 PM

You drop one (1) valve at speed due to stem lock failure and you'll wish you spent the extra money. Cheap insurance.

====================================

r2
Moparts Member
Posts: 1605
From: Farmington Hills, Michigan
Registered: Jan 2000
posted 12-16-2002 06:47 PM

I put the 10 degree stuff on mine, ( Unlawfl did as well),,,

======================================

fast68plymouth
Moparts Member
Posts: 3468
From: so burlington,vt usa
Registered: Aug 2000
posted 12-16-2002 06:54 PM

IMO, the machined 7deg locks they come with, along with the retainers are fine for pretty much any type of "normal" solid cam usage.
when i upgraded the heads on the default 600hp motor, i reused the retainers locks with the 8005A springs.
for that matter....when i did the dyno testing of the test heads, i used the supplied retainers and locks with K-Motion K1100 roller springs(set up at 200/500).

======================================

jamesc
Moparts Member
Posts: 4180
From: Peoples Republic of New Jersey
Registered: May 2001
posted 12-16-2002 06:58 PM

i think this is one that needs to be rehashed into some good info. i run 10* on my heads. the one engine i would say required them (300 seat/800 open) the other one got them cause i already had the titanium retainers. having said that i've heard and seem some stuff that argues against the 10* stuff. first is the somewhat apparent damage the 10* do to the stem. the 7* wedges tighter where the 10* seem to hook the groove a bit. i "think" there have been some pretty substantial improvements in the 7* stuff and AFAIK nascar engines are running the super 7*? to the best of my knowledge the only reason for the 10* is to stop lock pull through. when was the last time you heard of this happening? i'm not saying either one is better because i don't have enough experience/knowledge on all the different combos to say. i'm leaning towards the 7* being better (most applications) but can't say for sure. one advantage of the 10* is you don't need different retainers for different stem sizes, just different locks. if there is a weakness in the combo your working with i don't think it's that their 7* but more the quality of the retainers. i'm sure a quality 7* retainer/lock setup (crane,comp ect.) would be fine. i'd like to get some solid input on this subject and have it archived. we had a long discussion on the pros and cons before but it never got saved.

======================================

71scamp
Moparts Member
Posts: 1909
From: Akron, Ohio
Registered: Apr 2001
posted 12-16-2002 07:00 PM

You guys almost had me talked into it til I read Fast68's post.
Fast, if you feel the locks and retainers on the edelbrock heads are good enough with 8005A springs then I'll probably leave good enough alone. I raced with 7 degree locks on my 11 second 340 for years.

======================================

jamesc
Moparts Member
Posts: 4180
From: Peoples Republic of New Jersey
Registered: May 2001
posted 12-16-2002 07:00 PM

comon Dwayne with all the heads you crank out and stuff you've seen you must have more to say than that.

======================================

DRAM
Moparts Member
Posts: 4945
From: West Palm Bch. Fl.
Registered: Jun 2000
posted 12-16-2002 07:10 PM

i'm glad someone else chimed in on this one. i don't have enough long term experience with the edelbrock retainers to make the call one way or the other. after all, they've been out what, a year and a half?

=======================================

bud
Moparts Member
Posts: 558
From: vineland n.j. cumberland
Registered: Oct 2000
posted 12-16-2002 07:13 PM

I am changing springs on mine and have 10dg retainers so I nead 10 dg locks for the new stem size while your at it dont forget if you are running lash caps to get the retaners with the recess for the lash caps

====================================

ZIPPY
Moparts Member
Posts: 5790
From: Detroit suburbs MI USA
Registered: Jan 2000
posted 12-16-2002 07:46 PM

Mine will be set up with about 200 closed/500 open pressure, and I'm going to use 10 degree titanium retainers.
Not really because I'm all paranoid about pulling a lock through (as james said, when is the last time you heard of that happening?) but because I already have the titanium stuff laying around and a little extra insurance is nice. They were used on 3/8 valves before, but luckily they will work on the E heads by changing the locks.

=====================================

Streetwize
Moparts Member
Posts: 1454
From: Charlotte,NC USA
Registered: Dec 2000
posted 12-16-2002 07:59 PM

IMO, HARDENED (like the Comps) 7 degree locks are fine for most apps, although I've used 10 degrees and see no adverse effects either way. I have seen a few three groove locks 7 degree pull through. Valve weight spring load and how the motor is slung have the biggest bearing on how the valvetrain holds up. Give me two heads, one off a stick and one off an automatic with the same valvetrain and you can tell the stick car just by the way the valves come out.
Most aftermarket complete heads use cheap stamped locks, they get tossed right along with the as delivered valve job. A good single groove hardened lock and matching retainer, whether 7 or 10 degrees is money well spent.

Wize

=====================================

mopardad
Moparts Member
Posts: 400
From: Manheim Pa.
Registered: Sep 2001
posted 12-16-2002 08:16 PM

What Streetwise said about aftermarket heads is 100% right. My sons Daytona with Indy -1 dropped valves twice. Luckily it did not do any major damage either time. Heads came from Indy with 10 degree chrome moly retainers & locks. After the second time all the valves, locks & retainers were replaced. The retainers were replaced with titianum pieces. He has not had a problem since changing & the motor has seen over 7300 RPM on the bottle many times now.

=======================================

JERICOGTX
Moparts Member
Posts: 2685
From: Coldrnhell, MN
Registered: Apr 2001
posted 12-16-2002 08:27 PM

Mopardad, My INDY SR's also came with 10* locks and Chromoly retainers from INDY. I also dropped a valve on mine but was not as lucky as your son. I have replaced all the keepers, springs and upgraded to Titanium retainers.

===================================

jamesc
Moparts Member
Posts: 4180
From: Peoples Republic of New Jersey
Registered: May 2001
posted 12-16-2002 08:33 PM

anybody disagree with the opinion that with the exception of pull through the 10* is more likely to drop a valve than the 7*?
it just seems to me the 10* is more likely to have a lock work loose. of course if everything's spec'd/assembled correctly it shouldn't happen at all. i just like the idea that the 7* gives much more pressure on the collet effect.

=======================================

rrsbdh
Moparts Member
Posts: 2551
From: Decatur Alabama
Registered: Oct 2001
posted 12-16-2002 08:53 PM

Fast68, Can you use those K-motion springs on some solid fast ramp speed cams like the 570 to 585 Ultradyne with 1.6 rockers or would they crush the lifter or something? Seems like the ten degree lock would be of use there too.

=====================================

Michael Doty
Moparts Member
Posts: 2233
From: T F, MT USA
Registered: Nov 1999
posted 12-16-2002 08:59 PM

With that "medium" spring pressure I wouldn't hesitate to use 7 parts, have done it alot in the past and have seen no problems yet.
There are no guarantees ever with any parts, but in my opinion there are too many times when parts are bought "just in case". Pretty soon you have a $5,000 engine that runs like the $2,500 engine it should have been. Although I often use what I have on hand if it fills the bill, so I can see myself doing what Jamesc did.

The 7 parts definately wedge in there tighter, on a 800# plus spring I would hate to see how hard they come apart. The 10 stuff comes apart without much of a fight.

=====================================

jamesc
Moparts Member
Posts: 4180
From: Peoples Republic of New Jersey
Registered: May 2001
posted 12-16-2002 09:13 PM

quote:
-------------------------------------------
Pretty soon you have a $5,000 engine that runs like the $2,500 engine it should have been.
--------------------------------------------

some words of wisdom there...how bout the $12,000 engine that runs like the $6000 engine...
i've got one of each

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Dduster
Moparts Member
Posts: 731
From: Livermore, CA
Registered: Dec 2000
posted 12-16-2002 10:30 PM

A person I know did drop a valve in his car with the 7* lock setup. He believes the valves had gone soft, too many high rpm top end charges and the float or bounce got to them. There were a few more candidates for failure after teardown. Anyway; he got to send his head back to Indy and have it repaired and a buy new piston/rod combo. He runs the 10* configuration with the titanium retainers now.

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fast68plymouth
Moparts Member
Posts: 3468
From: so burlington,vt usa
Registered: Aug 2000
posted 12-16-2002 10:38 PM

just to clarify, the ten or twelve sets of BB E heads ive seen have all had machined 7deg locks, not the cheap stamped ones.
to buy locks like that from Comp or Crane would be $20 and up.
for hyd or solid cammed motors, i will use either 7 or 10deg stuff, and dont really care which. it just depends on what brand of spring im using, and whos retainer fits it better. then i just use which ever locks are required.
ive never had any type of lock pull through a retainer.
the E head retainers dont have the look of the Comp/Crane type retainers, but are pretty thick around the lock area, and i dont think they would be a problem at all with the 8005A's, expecially with a cam like the MP620, which isnt a cam thats particularly fast or hard on parts.

if i was setting up the heads for that cam, and the customer asked if he needed to upgrade the retainers/locks.....i'd say no. if they wanted to anyway i wouldnt have a problem with that either....its their money.
now....if they had stamped locks...then id at least upgrade to machined locks.

the E heads going on my motor will be getting the "super 7" style retainers/locks, but i'll be using a roller cam.

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DGLogan
Moparts Member
Posts: 677
From: Glen Allen, VA USA
Registered: Mar 2001
posted 12-16-2002 11:30 PM

We did have a discussion on this topic a few years back. The concensus back then was that there was a concern with 7 degree locks pulling through the retainer, hence the advent of the 10 degree stuff. With the improvement in materials (hopefully, no more aluminum retainers that would leave aluminum flakes in your oil) and choices available today, I guess 7 degree stuff suffices for most mild applications and super 7 or 10 degree for more specialized applications.

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71scamp
Moparts Member
Posts: 1909
From: Akron, Ohio
Registered: Apr 2001
posted 12-17-2002 05:13 PM

Looks like alot of mixed opinions here, on one hand I greatly believe in Fast68's advice and on the other hand both Compuflow and Hensley racing told me today that the 7 degree locks are a recipe for disaster.
Hensley also said on the stock e-heads to make sure the valve guides are not to tight and to do a leakdown test on the valve job. I'll have to get prices on that stuff.

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71scamp
Moparts Member
Posts: 1909
From: Akron, Ohio
Registered: Apr 2001
posted 12-17-2002 05:19 PM

Almost forgot, Hensley also said they don't have any problems using the 8519PT-1 head gaskets with the e-heads and 12 to 1 comp.

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rrsbdh
Moparts Member
Posts: 2551
From: Decatur Alabama
Registered: Oct 2001
posted 12-17-2002 05:28 PM

I guess what Fast68 is saying is it depends on the situation and that he feels that with the 620Mp cam in combination with the Edlbrock retainers that the seven degree works fine. But it could be different with larger cams especially rollers and different spring pressures and retainers for those springs. In other words its combo specific.

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rrsbdh
Moparts Member
Posts: 2551
From: Decatur Alabama
Registered: Oct 2001
posted 12-17-2002 05:33 PM

Thats why I ask about the what springs and so forth would be good with 1.6 rockers on an Ultradyne 582 cam. Those cams have a very fast rate of lift like a roller and some people would just as soon go roller as it creates more pressure on the solid lifter with 1.6 rockers. The roller lifters could handle it. I already have a 570 in one engine and was wondering if a 582 could be handled. Thats why I wanted to know what he and Wize thought about it. All these things are combo specific and due to their experience they have seen more of these things than most of us.

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'Bee4Me
Moparts Member
Posts: 370
From: Little Rock, AR. USA
Registered: Jul 2002
posted 12-17-2002 06:45 PM

No expert here but, my question is..
WHAT'S the shop's GUARANTEE if you don't???

I'm sure they stand behind their work and would go on their recomendation unless it dosen't matter to THEM. Don't want an
"I told you so" from them after the fact.

Just a thought.

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MoparBilly G
Moparts Member
Posts: 871
From: Phoenix , Az
Registered: Feb 2001
posted 12-17-2002 07:39 PM

When I originally put my Eddies on, I had a 312/590 solid in the car, and I simply added inner springs, and used all of the existing stuff that came with the heads..
When I went to the Ultradyne 640, I added Titanium 10 degree Retainers that I had previously...But my machinist didn't think it was neccessary...he said "We'll use them if you already have them...but the retainers they came with will be fine".

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rrsbdh
Moparts Member
Posts: 2551
From: Decatur Alabama
Registered: Oct 2001
posted 12-17-2002 07:46 PM

MoparBilly, since you're known for running the crap outta stuff LOL. What kinda inner spring did you use? Do you have a part number for them?

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d-man
Moparts Member
Posts: 212
From: east texas
Registered: Jun 2001
posted 12-17-2002 07:55 PM

so are mp aluminum 7degree reatiners no good?
i have some but for the price of some new 10moly ones i think i will have to get new ones.
i will be running a moderate solid probably.
not sure which yet though, thought i'd ask since this thread was up here.

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DRAM
Moparts Member
Posts: 4945
From: West Palm Bch. Fl.
Registered: Jun 2000
posted 12-17-2002 08:45 PM

d-man, two things that don't go well together are "aluminum" and "retainer". get some steel or better one's but get rid of the aluminum. i think that's one of the things that gave the 7 degree stuff a bad rap.

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jamesc
Moparts Member
Posts: 4180
From: Peoples Republic of New Jersey
Registered: May 2001
posted 12-17-2002 09:02 PM

" i think that's one of the things that gave the 7 degree stuff a bad rap."
agreed...i wouldn't even give aluminum retainers to someone i didn't like.
throw those things in the trash.

i wouldn't be scared of the 7's in your application.

as for leaking the heads i wouldn't bother. just get a competent shop to bump the seats and valves (little backcut would be nice as well).

imho i've never seen an "out of the box" valve job that shouldn't be bumped.

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Sport
Moparts Member
Posts: 616
From: Canton, Ohio. USA
Registered: Jan 2002
posted 12-17-2002 09:19 PM

I too feel the retainers and locks that your Eddys came with will be fine for the springs you are using. But I agree with Dram they havent been out long to really test their durability but I have some trust in Eldebrock. There were only two things that I didnt like about them. One the protruded edge or collet? on the lock could of been taller, there was room in the valve groove for it. Its height is less than the stock locks on my 906,s. Two, the lock could have more fully encapsulated the perimiter of the valve stem. Mine have a full 1/16" gap. Even with that being said I still feel they are much stonger than stock and plenty strong enough for your springs. I second Henslys valve touch up check. Sport
And Dman I have heard nothing good about the aluminum retainers either, They dont last for --- and I would never use them.

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rrsbdh
Moparts Member
Posts: 2551
From: Decatur Alabama
Registered: Oct 2001
posted 12-17-2002 10:32 PM

Aluminum does stink for retainers. I have broken in an engine once with them and after I did and opened the covers to check the lash I got what looked like fine aluminum paint all over my hands.

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fast68plymouth
Moparts Member
Posts: 3468
From: so burlington,vt usa
Registered: Aug 2000
posted 12-18-2002 06:36 PM

originally posted by DRAM:
two things that don't go well together are "aluminum" and "retainer".
i think this may be the first time when Dram and i are in complete agreement

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rrsbdh
Moparts Member
Posts: 2551
From: Decatur Alabama
Registered: Oct 2001
posted 12-19-2002 12:16 AM

Does the spring base on the Edelbrock's have to be changed to go to double springs or are they just a lock on thing in most cases?

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rrsbdh
Moparts Member
Posts: 2551
From: Decatur Alabama
Registered: Oct 2001
posted 12-19-2002 12:20 AM

I can see now why the Edelbrock's are just a little wider than stock iron heads. Nothing to do with flow like the SR's. It just prevents the exhaust header bolts from going into water like on stock heads. You'll still have to use antiseize compound but not for the same reasons and you won't have to worry about water leaks there anymore.

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DRAM
Moparts Member
Posts: 4945
From: West Palm Bch. Fl.
Registered: Jun 2000
posted 12-19-2002 12:37 AM

rrsbdh
Moparts Member
Posts: 2548
Does the spring base on the Edelbrock's have to be changed to go to double springs or are they just a lock on thing in most cases?

it depends on the springs. i've used a couple of different brands and the installed height was different than the eddy's. rather than mess around buying different retainers or locks, i just cut the spring seats.
i would also recommend using the installed height as a guide and nothing more. i alway's set springs up by pressure, not height. naturally pressures need to be checked at different heights to verify the quality of the spring.

=====================================

Valve springs and E heads

Dodge1
Moparts Member
Posts: 1050
From: St Clair Shores, Michigan
Registered: Apr 2001
posted 01-19-2003 04:06 AM

The valve springs that came on my E heads might be a tad weak for my cam? Now I haven't suffered any valve float at 6K rpm but the specs don't seem to match the cam? Maybe?
My cam=
I lift .539"
E lift .557"
I dur 244@.050"
E dur 249@.050"

This is a fast rate cam made by Engles. Eddie states the springs are good to .600 lift.
Installed height according to their web site is 1.885". Here are the pressure specs on their site
1.900" = 115 lbs.
1.400" = 280 lbs.

Now I am guessing that with the installed height seat pressure is probably around 120 lbs?
My cam calls for 130 lbs @ 1.90 installed height. But, no less than 320 lbs @ .557 lift. Not knowing what my height is at max lift I am just not sure?
Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.

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badasmopar
Moparts Member
Posts: 617
From: Sandy, Oregon
Registered: Dec 2001
posted 01-19-2003 05:00 AM

I have about the same cam as you do, but with 1.6 rockers. After cracking my iron heads I changed out the small inside spring onto the Edelbrocks. Car ran faster by just that one change, not sure if I was getting some valve float or what with Stock Edelbrock springs. I know alot of people say that they just bolt the heads on and go 10's, but im not sure how true that is.

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cuda440
Moparts Member
Posts: 878
From: Pasadena, CA
Registered: Apr 2001
posted 01-19-2003 06:29 AM

i had the exact same concern as you have now when having my 496 built recently. It's getting dyno'd Jan 24-25th. I went with a Comp cams XE295HL hydraulic (.564/251@.050) I asked Comp and they said the Eddy springs are soft, then asked Edelbrock and they said should be o.k, and i asked my engine builder he said should be fine also, so we shimmed the eddy springs to bring up the pressure to around 135/325#. It's primarily a street motor that'll rarely see past 5600-5800, so i don't think valve float will be an issue in my case. But i will admit i'm not 100% confident about using the springs-- i've heard good and bad about them

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rrsbdh
Moparts Member
Posts: 2890
From: Decatur Alabama
Registered: Oct 2001
posted 01-19-2003 06:52 AM

A lot of folks at near 600 lift switch to the Isky 8005a springs and like em. I still have stock on mine though.

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roadracedartgt
Moparts Member
Posts: 306
From: Huntington, New York, USA
Registered: Jul 2002
posted 01-19-2003 07:14 AM

I have a sb. but my eddy springs were soft too, way soft. Under a 100lbs on the seat. I run hughes 1111 @ 1.800. It gives me about 130 on the seat, 325 or so open. They tested exactly as advertised. Cam duration is small @ 224/230.

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ZIPPY
Moparts Member
Posts: 5913
From: Detroit suburbs MI USA
Registered: Jan 2000
posted 01-19-2003 11:08 AM

K Motion K1100's here.
Should end up around 200 on the seat, 500 open...a tad bit more than what you would want with a hydraulic

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jamesc
Moparts Member
Posts: 4260
From: Peoples Republic of New Jersey
Registered: May 2001
posted 01-19-2003 11:13 AM

both 451jim and fast68plymouth have checked the esprings and IIRC found them to be stiffer than listed (by a fair margin i think) in the 130-140 area on the seat, don't know the open or rate. the specs were listed somewhere but i couldn't find them the last time i looked. i'm inclined to believe they are fine for your application.

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470Roadrunner
Moparts Member
Posts: 217
From: Des Moines, IA, USA
Registered: Sep 2002
posted 01-19-2003 12:10 PM

I'm running Hughes 1107 dual springs on my eddies. Was a Scribner and a guy with a 499" Bblock had a .590 lift MP solid with stock E-head springs. Ran 11.50's 1st time out, nevt weekend went 12.20's and 12.40's buy the end of the night. He figured it was the springs going south.

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Dodge1
Moparts Member
Posts: 1050
From: St Clair Shores, Michigan
Registered: Apr 2001
posted 01-19-2003 12:33 PM

Thanks for those replies. Maybe Fast68 DRAM or several others who have tested these on their bench will chime in?

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Unlawfl
Moparts
Posts: 6703
From: MI., usa
Registered: Jan 2000
posted 01-19-2003 12:33 PM

Brian, the E-supplied springs should be fine for your hydraulic cam. I was running 130/330 rates on my hydraulic 3844 Hughes as well as on the 4550 solid. With the new heads and bigger cam, I'm using the PAC springs sold by Diamond. Theyre the same spring as the Comp925's but you take the center out. See Todd440 as he can get you a set if your thinking of changing..

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Dodge1
Moparts Member
Posts: 1050
From: St Clair Shores, Michigan
Registered: Apr 2001
posted 01-19-2003 12:45 PM

Gary
I take it you had those measured?

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451boy
Moparts Member
Posts: 5740
From: Oregon
Registered: Nov 1999
posted 01-19-2003 01:32 PM

The last set of E heads that I took into the shop measured 140 lbs on the seat. Plenty stout.

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71scamp
Moparts Member
Posts: 2056
From: Akron, Ohio
Registered: Apr 2001
posted 01-19-2003 02:12 PM

Mine are getting the Isky 8005A's, 135 on the seat, 395 open, but it's for the MP 620-324 solid cam. You'll be fine with the stock e-head springs and your cam.

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Randy E
Moparts Member
Posts: 531
From: Commerce, Mi.
Registered: May 2000
posted 01-19-2003 08:32 PM

Comp 925's here.
------------------
Randy E

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Crazy73
Moparts Member
Posts: 3217
From: Manchester CT
Registered: Dec 1999
posted 01-19-2003 08:33 PM

Springs that come on the Ebrocks are good for up to .575" lift
You should be fine until then.

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451 Jim
Moparts Member
Posts: 3074
From: Lexington Park Maryland
Registered: Dec 2000
posted 01-19-2003 09:12 PM

The BB Edelbrock head springs often test much higher than spec. Check the link in my sig to the Edel Head Test and the background page.
I think they should work great in your application.

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rat roaster
Moparts Member
Posts: 383
From: Edmonton,Alberta,Canada
Registered: Feb 2001
posted 01-19-2003 09:17 PM

Mp 066 springs on my .557 x 296 MP cam

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rrsbdh
Moparts Member
Posts: 2890
From: Decatur Alabama
Registered: Oct 2001
posted 01-19-2003 09:38 PM

Randy E, what are the specs on the comp 925's?

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Randy E
Moparts Member
Posts: 531
From: Commerce, Mi.
Registered: May 2000
posted 01-19-2003 10:31 PM

According to Comp, they are 142 seat, and 399 open. Hensley's selected them for me when I bought their Eddy head package. I am currently using a UD NF-series solid cam(570 lift), but told them I want enough spring in case I ever choose a cam closer to 600 lift.

Randy E

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beepilot
Moparts Member
Posts: 126
From: Oakland, Maine, USA
Registered: Feb 2002
posted 01-19-2003 11:34 PM

Is any machining involved in installing the mentioned replacement springs. Comp Cams recommends 925's for my cam. I really don't want to machine my heads for duals if I can get around it. I'm not sure if the 925's fit as is . I'm sure I heard some duals do fit without machining

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Dodge1
Moparts Member
Posts: 1050
From: St Clair Shores, Michigan
Registered: Apr 2001
posted 01-20-2003 02:43 AM

Thanks gents. I consider this matter closed for me

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rrsbdh
Moparts Member
Posts: 2890
From: Decatur Alabama
Registered: Oct 2001
posted 01-20-2003 04:18 AM

The only ones I know for sure that fit without machining is the Isky. We'll have to wait on our chumes to tell us about the K motions and comps.

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gregsdart
Moparts Member
Posts: 2043
From: frostbite falls Mn USA
Registered: Jan 2001
posted 01-20-2003 06:51 AM

With roller cams needing more preasure than previously thought, might not the same be true with flat tappet cams? My own experiance with flat tappets is limited, didn't have any trouble, but on the roller stuff i made a fair amount more power with a better spring. My concern is in using a fast rate of lift cam, then putting a 1.6 rocker on it and using steel retainers, then rev it high. That to me would tell the tale. It would be nice to see what happens if a car is dialed in with the stock eddy springs, then after establishing a baseline, switch to a stiffer spring and see what happens. Anybody done this?

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todd440
Moparts Member
Posts: 1469
From: lapeer,michigan
Registered: Jan 2001
posted 01-20-2003 10:10 AM

The comp 925 spring fits like a glove with no machining. The Diamond springs are a PAC spring, dual, with the similar specs as the 925's. They also fit perfect. These would be stiff for hyd, but great for solids.

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moparmike1
New Member
Posts: 70
From: great falls, mt, US
Registered: Dec 2002
posted 01-20-2003 10:27 AM

Any of you guys using MANLEYS ? I have a set that is suppose to be good up to about .750" of lift. I was also told the are to be used with a roller cam.

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E-Head Guru's... What spark plug do you run?

66chargerguy
New Member
Posts: 30
From: Sonora, CA
Registered: Aug 2002
posted 01-17-2003 11:29 AM

I'm sure I've seen this question asked before, but I'd like to know what spark plugs are recommended for BB E-Heads...
Thanks a million,

Ryan

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bada$$challenger
Moparts Member
Posts: 149
From: Slidell, La
Registered: Sep 2002
posted 01-17-2003 11:53 AM

If you mean Edelbrock Performer RPM Aluminum Heads, I use champion RC12YC. I hope that is what you meant.

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Crazy73
Moparts Member
Posts: 3217
From: Manchester CT
Registered: Dec 1999
posted 01-17-2003 12:04 PM

I use the same plug on my 340 Performer RPM Ebrocks.
RC12YC with a .040 gap

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71STROKERFISH
Moparts Member
Posts: 244
From: Harrah, Oklahoma USA
Registered: Aug 2002
posted 01-17-2003 12:13 PM

I use the recommended plug as previously stated....Champion..fits well

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Apollo 13
Moparts Member
Posts: 321
From: maysville,ky
Registered: Jul 2002
posted 01-18-2003 12:19 AM

Any thoughts on the NGK plugs?? Good , bad , ugly ,what????

==================================

451 Jim
Moparts Member
Posts: 3074
From: Lexington Park Maryland
Registered: Dec 2000
posted 01-18-2003 12:18 PM

I run Autolite 3923 in my 11.8 CR engine with the BB Edelbrock heads. For less compression, the 3924 would be better (hotter plug).

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r2
Moparts Member
Posts: 1647
From: Farmington Hills, Michigan
Registered: Jan 2000
posted 01-18-2003 12:37 PM

Jim, What plug number would use for my setup?
496, E heads(ported), compression 10.7:1, pump gas, street/strip, 93 octane, The 3924 since i have a bit less compression than you???? thanks Doug

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T748
Moparts Member
Posts: 281
From: Vallejo,California
Registered: Mar 2000
posted 01-18-2003 02:01 PM

r2- I think you'll like the 3924's in your 496.I ran them in a 440 with 11.2:1. I thought that that compression was just about the borderline between the 3294's and 3923's. I've got a 493 with 12.6 now, so i'm trying to find a new plug that will work with that. The 3923's were a little hot.I'm trying a set of Accel 763's now.I also have a set of Champion C61yc i wont to try.I've heard good things about the NGK plugs just never tried them.-Tom.

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roadracedartgt
Moparts Member
Posts: 312
From: Huntington, New York, USA
Registered: Jul 2002
posted 01-18-2003 02:14 PM

I've run both the Champs and no NGKs, both good.

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Blown440
New Member
Posts: 62
From: Ottawa,Ont,Canada
Registered: Dec 2002
posted 01-18-2003 02:27 PM

I use to run Champs, now run NGK XR5(v-groove) never had a problem.

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todd440
Moparts Member
Posts: 1471
From: lapeer,michigan
Registered: Jan 2001
posted 01-18-2003 03:00 PM

Doug, my 470 in the coronet loves the 3923 autolite, and it's 10.6 to 1.

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DusterDave
Moparts Member
Posts: 4070
From: Tampa, FL
Registered: Mar 2000
posted 01-18-2003 07:05 PM

I ran what Edelbrock recommended, and my plugs stayed clean and light tan, and that was with running a Dominator on the street.

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MoatesGarage
Moparts Member
Posts: 571
From: Sheffield, AL
Registered: May 2002
posted 01-18-2003 07:13 PM

I run autolites in all my mopars. I've always heard they are better for Mopars. Just me...

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451 Jim
Moparts Member
Posts: 3074
From: Lexington Park Maryland
Registered: Dec 2000
posted 01-18-2003 09:24 PM

r2, start with the 3923 and if they are too cold go with the 3924. If you do a lot of street driving, the hotter 3924 might work better. In my strip only 11.8 CR 451, the 3923 are actually just a little hot for strip only (ie. I could use a little colder). So, the new 471 with 12.1 CR might like a step colder for race only.

====================================

 

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